Recently I was asked what my views on the Trinity were
'I just wanted to pick your brains on the trinity-what is your basic understanding? Do you believe that jesus had a pre existence? as i thought you were a biblical unitarian- or maybei this is in the Arian or Modualist sense? (or maybe binitarian?)I have held different views at different times but am not sure either way really? Would be grateful for your discernments and comments.'
so here is my attempt at an answer.
Hi W***** to be honest I’m not overly knowledgeable about the various terms you used in your mail, but I will try and answer your questions as best I can. I have done quite a study in this topic over the past five years
I am no longer a believer in the so-called ‘trinity doctrine ‘of the church primarily because I can find no evidence for it in the scriptures.It was not always my view and for the 34 years I spent in church I did believe and teach it.After all, to not believe in that doctrine would put you ‘beyond the pail’ in most Christians minds if you say you no longer believe in a trinity. It did freak my old pastor out when I said I believed there wasn’t one. Interestingly enough the last person to be hanged for blasphemy in the UK (Thomas Aikenhead) didn’t believe in it either, nor did Calvin’s old mate Servetus and look where he ended up.Well at least hopefully that won’t happen to me,but most of my former Christians associates probably consider me as having gone off the rails completely.However none of them will be able to show me from the scriptures the phrase ‘God the holy spirit’ because it isn’t in any of the scriptures.
Like I said I have spent many hours looking into this subject studying mainly the NT and an overwhelming body of evidence from the scriptures that completely contradict the ‘trinity doctrine’ and I will share some of my findings with you.
Starting with Paul we have thirteen books and in each one we have absolutely no mention of a ‘triune God ‘ rather the contrary.In all of his letters he opens with the following.
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:7
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1Cor 1;3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Gal 1:3
Eph 1:2 ,Phil 1:2, Col 1:1-3,1 Thess 1:1-3, 2 Thess 1:1-2 1 Tim 1:1-2, 2 Tim 1:1-2, Titus 1:4,Phile 1:2
It’s interesting that Paul makes no mention of the holy spirit in any of these greetings. Paul also states to the Corinthian church the following
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1 Cor 8:5-6
We know that the Corinthian church was in somewhat of a mess and that Paul’s letter was written in order to straighten them out.One would of thought that Paul would have used this opportunity to introduce to the polytheistic Corinthians the concept of the trinity but he simply doesn’t. My guess is that Paul wasn’t a ‘trinitarian’ either.
What about Jesus Christ ,did he ever state he was part of a ‘trinity’ ? Well! despite what the church teaches Jesus never once mentioned that he was part of any trinity, once again I find the scriptures contradicting what the church teaches. There are so many examples so I will be able to give you just a few.
Christ only ever spoke of himself being sent by the Father
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me John 8:42
John 10:15-38
John 12:44-50
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me." John 13:20 again the singular him.
Whole of John 14
You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28
Again If Christ was part of an trinity why would he say the Father was greater than him?
John 15:1-5
John 17:1-5 (particularly verse 3)
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17 Jesus Christ has a God ? Yes apparently.
Like I said there are many more examples in the scriptures which I’m sure you already know about.
What about the apostle Peter?
May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 2 Pet 1:2-3
Peter is talking about the father and son here again no mention of a holy spirit or trinity
The apostle John also states quite clearly
that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:3
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20
veryone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 No trinity there.
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love. 2 John 1:3
and finally Revelation
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1
Why hasn’t the third part of ‘the Trinity’ got a throne?
I am no longer a believer in the so-called ‘trinity doctrine ‘of the church primarily because I can find no evidence for it in the scriptures.It was not always my view and for the 34 years I spent in church I did believe and teach it.After all, to not believe in that doctrine would put you ‘beyond the pail’ in most Christians minds if you say you no longer believe in a trinity. It did freak my old pastor out when I said I believed there wasn’t one. Interestingly enough the last person to be hanged for blasphemy in the UK (Thomas Aikenhead) didn’t believe in it either, nor did Calvin’s old mate Servetus and look where he ended up.Well at least hopefully that won’t happen to me,but most of my former Christians associates probably consider me as having gone off the rails completely.However none of them will be able to show me from the scriptures the phrase ‘God the holy spirit’ because it isn’t in any of the scriptures.
Like I said I have spent many hours looking into this subject studying mainly the NT and an overwhelming body of evidence from the scriptures that completely contradict the ‘trinity doctrine’ and I will share some of my findings with you.
Starting with Paul we have thirteen books and in each one we have absolutely no mention of a ‘triune God ‘ rather the contrary.In all of his letters he opens with the following.
To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Rom 1:7
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 1Cor 1;3
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 1:2
Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, Gal 1:3
Eph 1:2 ,Phil 1:2, Col 1:1-3,1 Thess 1:1-3, 2 Thess 1:1-2 1 Tim 1:1-2, 2 Tim 1:1-2, Titus 1:4,Phile 1:2
It’s interesting that Paul makes no mention of the holy spirit in any of these greetings. Paul also states to the Corinthian church the following
For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth--as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"--
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1 Cor 8:5-6
We know that the Corinthian church was in somewhat of a mess and that Paul’s letter was written in order to straighten them out.One would of thought that Paul would have used this opportunity to introduce to the polytheistic Corinthians the concept of the trinity but he simply doesn’t. My guess is that Paul wasn’t a ‘trinitarian’ either.
What about Jesus Christ ,did he ever state he was part of a ‘trinity’ ? Well! despite what the church teaches Jesus never once mentioned that he was part of any trinity, once again I find the scriptures contradicting what the church teaches. There are so many examples so I will be able to give you just a few.
Christ only ever spoke of himself being sent by the Father
Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me John 8:42
John 10:15-38
John 12:44-50
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me." John 13:20 again the singular him.
Whole of John 14
You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28
Again If Christ was part of an trinity why would he say the Father was greater than him?
John 15:1-5
John 17:1-5 (particularly verse 3)
Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17 Jesus Christ has a God ? Yes apparently.
Like I said there are many more examples in the scriptures which I’m sure you already know about.
What about the apostle Peter?
May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 2 Pet 1:2-3
Peter is talking about the father and son here again no mention of a holy spirit or trinity
The apostle John also states quite clearly
that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:3
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. 1 John 5:20
veryone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9 No trinity there.
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ the Father's Son, in truth and love. 2 John 1:3
and finally Revelation
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb Rev 22:1
Why hasn’t the third part of ‘the Trinity’ got a throne?
Like I said my studies took several months to complete and I have hundreds more scriptures which I won’t inflict on you, but believe me there is no Trinity it is just another ‘pagan teaching’ that has been introduced into the church
You also asked do I believe that Jesus Christ had a pre existence before his incarnation? Absolutely! and there are plenty of scriptures that demonstrate that fact.Let us look first at Christ’s role as the Creator
John 1:1-3
Originally, was, the Word, and, the Word, was, with God; and, the Word, was, God. 2 The same, was originally, with God. 3 All things, through him, came into existence, and, without him, came into existence, not even one thing: that which hath come into existence, (Rotheram)
John 1:10
in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: (Youngs)
Rom 11:36
Because, of him, and through him, and unto him, are all things:--unto him, be the glory, unto the ages. Amen! (Rotheram) 1 Cor 8:6
But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him. (King James)
Eph 3:9
And to bring to light--what is the administration of the sacred secret which had been hidden away from the ages in God, who did all things create: (Rotheram)
Col 1:16-17
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (King James)
Heb 1:1-2
In many ways and in various ways of old, God spoke to the fathers in the prophets; 2 in these last days He spoke to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; through whom He indeed made the ages;
(Literal Version)
Heb 1:10-12
And, "You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. 11 They shall perish, but You will remain. And and--Thou, by way of beginning, Lord, the earth, didst found, and, the works of thy hands, are the heavens, -- 11 They, shall perish, but, thou, abidest still, and, all, as a mantle, shall be worn out, 12 And, as if a robe, wilt thou fold them up,--as a mantle, and they shall be changed; but, thou, art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Heb 2:10
For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Heb 11:3
Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. (King James)
Rev 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. (King James)
John 3:13
And, no one, hath ascended into heaven, save he that, out of heaven, descended,--The Son of Man. (Rotheram)
John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
:57 So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am."
59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
John 16:28
I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father
(King James)
John 17:5
And now, Father, do Thou glorify me in Thine own presence, with the glory that I had in Thy presence before the world existed.
(Weymouth)
John 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
(King James)
Paul also states
1 Cor 10:4-9
and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 Nevertheless, with most of them God was not pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things took place as examples for us, that we might not desire evil as they did.
1Co 10:7 Do not be idolaters as some of them were; as it is written, "The people sat down to eat and drink and rose up to play."
1Co 10:8 We must not indulge in sexual immorality as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in a single day.
1Co 10:9 We must not put Christ to the test, as some of them did and were destroyed by serpents,
1 Cor 15:47
The first man, is of the ground, earthy, the second man, is, of heaven: (Rotheram)
Phil 2:6-7
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: (King James)
So it is plainly evident from these scriptures that Christ did not merely come into existence at his birth as a human.
As well as having pre existed.Has Christ eternally existed with the Father? Well, the church would teach that he has eternally existed with the father but as we we all know fathers are always older than their offspring.i believe that Christ was created by the father as Revelation 3:14 would suggest.
Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;(King James)
And, unto the messenger of the assembly, in Laodicea, write:--These things, saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness the beginning of the creation of God:(Rotheram)
`And to the messenger of the assembly of the Laodiceans write: These things saith the Amen, the witness--the faithful and true--the chief of the creation of God (youngs)
“And to (by; in; for) the agent (messenger) of the called-out group within Laodicea, write: “The Amen (The It-is-so), the Faithful (Trustworthy) and True Witness, the Beginning of God’s Creation (or: the Origin of God’s creation; the First Place or Corner God’s Framing; the Beginning of God’s act of building and founding; the Beginning of Gods act of reducing from a state of wildness and disorder) is presently saying these things,
(Johnathan Mitchell’s NT)
And to the messenger of the ecclesia in Laodicea write: 'Now this is saying the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, and God's Creative Original:" (Concordant NT)
Paul also states
1 Cor 8:5-6
yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things (including his son) and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. 1 Cor 8:5-6
Interestingly enough Genesis 1:1The word 'beginning' can also be translated as firstfruit. Who is the first fruit?
Interestingly enough Genesis 1:1The word 'beginning' can also be translated as firstfruit. Who is the first fruit?
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shı̂yth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Well I hope I have answered some of your questions a bit.Like I say! it’s rather a big topic to study but it’s really quite simple really as Paul states in Corinthians ‘for us’ that’s you and me .
'there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.'
May I also recommend L Ray Smiths paper on the Trinity http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html he covers this topic in very great detail.
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